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	<title>Comments on: Form Equals Form Equals Function</title>
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	<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/</link>
	<description>&#34;I like a little science in my fiction&#34;</description>
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		<title>By: ktholt</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>ktholt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2010 14:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-508</guid>
		<description>Aw, dangit Athena. You beat me to the comment I first thought of when Bart posted this! :) As a matter of fact, I&#039;m working on a piece of art in which an amphibious cephalopod species comes to Earth. Titled &quot;Take Me to Your Mother&quot;

I love radial symmetry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aw, dangit Athena. You beat me to the comment I first thought of when Bart posted this! <img src='http://scienceinmyfiction.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  As a matter of fact, I&#8217;m working on a piece of art in which an amphibious cephalopod species comes to Earth. Titled &#8220;Take Me to Your Mother&#8221;</p>
<p>I love radial symmetry.</p>
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		<title>By: Athena Andreadis</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-507</link>
		<dc:creator>Athena Andreadis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2010 14:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-507</guid>
		<description>Writing the &quot;almost human&quot; is the biggest challenge of all.  C. S. Friedman&#039;s In Conquest Born also featured diaspora-drifted human cultures.  Equally exciting and challenging are Melissa Scott&#039;s Shadow Man and Donald Kingsbury&#039;s Courtship Rites.

On the side of alien creation, Poul Anderson was the best, in my opinion.  He created a constellation of vivid, believable aliens in a cycle of short stories linked to his rogue hero, Nicholas van Rijn, The Earth Book of Stormgate (the most memorable is The Man Who Counts, in which he tackles the issue of speciation) -- plus, of course, his flying Ythrians and Adzel and Chee Lan, the two marvelously drawn alien partners of David Falkayn.

In line with Bart&#039;s point, the dilemmas and conflicts that arise from these interactions are similar to those between different terrestrial cultures, particularly first-contact situations, with occasional added biological complications.

I have a suspicion I will really like Sheila Finch...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Writing the &#8220;almost human&#8221; is the biggest challenge of all.  C. S. Friedman&#8217;s In Conquest Born also featured diaspora-drifted human cultures.  Equally exciting and challenging are Melissa Scott&#8217;s Shadow Man and Donald Kingsbury&#8217;s Courtship Rites.</p>
<p>On the side of alien creation, Poul Anderson was the best, in my opinion.  He created a constellation of vivid, believable aliens in a cycle of short stories linked to his rogue hero, Nicholas van Rijn, The Earth Book of Stormgate (the most memorable is The Man Who Counts, in which he tackles the issue of speciation) &#8212; plus, of course, his flying Ythrians and Adzel and Chee Lan, the two marvelously drawn alien partners of David Falkayn.</p>
<p>In line with Bart&#8217;s point, the dilemmas and conflicts that arise from these interactions are similar to those between different terrestrial cultures, particularly first-contact situations, with occasional added biological complications.</p>
<p>I have a suspicion I will really like Sheila Finch&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Juliette Wade</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-505</link>
		<dc:creator>Juliette Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2010 04:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-505</guid>
		<description>There is a race of intelligent cephalopods in Sheila Finch&#039;s story collection, The Guild of Xenolinguists.  Your comment brought them immediately to mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a race of intelligent cephalopods in Sheila Finch&#8217;s story collection, The Guild of Xenolinguists.  Your comment brought them immediately to mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Juliette Wade</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-504</link>
		<dc:creator>Juliette Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2010 04:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-504</guid>
		<description>I really like this post!  I wonder if you&#039;ve ever had a chance to read This Alien Shore by C.S. Friedman, which is related to this discussion by virtue of the fact that the human interstellar diaspora in her novel was mutated by the use of a star drive. As a result, her entire universe is full of &quot;aliens&quot; who are in fact humans.  I always thought this was rather a clever way of approaching the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like this post!  I wonder if you&#8217;ve ever had a chance to read This Alien Shore by C.S. Friedman, which is related to this discussion by virtue of the fact that the human interstellar diaspora in her novel was mutated by the use of a star drive. As a result, her entire universe is full of &#8220;aliens&#8221; who are in fact humans.  I always thought this was rather a clever way of approaching the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Calvin Johnson</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-497</link>
		<dc:creator>Calvin Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-497</guid>
		<description>The &quot;future is wild&quot; series (www.thefutureiswild.com) imagines, among other things, cephalopods moving into several ecological niches previously occupied by mammals, including monkey-like &quot;squibbons&quot; (squid + gibbon, get it?), as well as other examples of niche swapping, such as fish becoming airbreathing and airborne and replacing birds. While I have my doubts about the plausibility of many of these scenarios (particularly the flying fish, which while nicely bold, would require a pretty big shift in metabolism), demonstrates convergent evolution as dictated by ecological niches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;future is wild&#8221; series (www.thefutureiswild.com) imagines, among other things, cephalopods moving into several ecological niches previously occupied by mammals, including monkey-like &#8220;squibbons&#8221; (squid + gibbon, get it?), as well as other examples of niche swapping, such as fish becoming airbreathing and airborne and replacing birds. While I have my doubts about the plausibility of many of these scenarios (particularly the flying fish, which while nicely bold, would require a pretty big shift in metabolism), demonstrates convergent evolution as dictated by ecological niches.</p>
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		<title>By: Athena Andreadis</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-480</link>
		<dc:creator>Athena Andreadis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-480</guid>
		<description>It just occurred to me that one example of a very divergent body plan that would fulfill all requirements that Sarah listed is the octopus: they are very intelligent, they have excellent vision and they can manipulate tools.  So races of intelligent cephalopods might just be in our future encounter list!

The bilateral versus radial symmetry body plan was indeed coincidence and then inertia, as the instructions got embedded into the developmental program (the famous Hox genes and their relatives).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It just occurred to me that one example of a very divergent body plan that would fulfill all requirements that Sarah listed is the octopus: they are very intelligent, they have excellent vision and they can manipulate tools.  So races of intelligent cephalopods might just be in our future encounter list!</p>
<p>The bilateral versus radial symmetry body plan was indeed coincidence and then inertia, as the instructions got embedded into the developmental program (the famous Hox genes and their relatives).</p>
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		<title>By: Athena Andreadis</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-479</link>
		<dc:creator>Athena Andreadis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 20:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-479</guid>
		<description>Thank you for highlighting my book, Bart!  I also wrote about this issue more briefly in my Making Aliens 6-part series (starting point: http://www.starshipreckless.com/blog/?p=24) and in Dreamers of a Better Future, Unite! (http://www.starshipreckless.com/blog/?p=60).

There is no question that people would have to evolve if they lived on other earth-like planets, unless they were content to live forever under domes, a scenario that would resemble a prison or an ICU unit, rather than a new world.  Evolution of this type would lead to speciation, which I suspect will be the topic of your &quot;divergent evolution&quot; post.

To enlarge on the excellent point of the strictly-by-function scoring system of evolution: we won&#039;t know which attributes of living organisms are universal and which are parochial until we have an independent life sample.  The gamut of terrestrial lifeforms alone and their divergent solutions to the same problem already show that only the outcome matters.  The ability to fly, rather than exactly how to do so (insect, bird and bat flight is based on very different principles).  To ability to see well enough to survive, thrive and propagate; and so forth.

Also, there are other senses that we don&#039;t possess that are useful to other terrestrial organisms -- sensing EM, for example, or being able to smell pheromones (something that humans cannot do no matter what the tabloids say, because our vomeronasal organ is not functional).  So one interesting question of diverging humans beyond earth is what other senses may become important in the new context, and what accommodations our body and brain can/will make to develop them.  We&#039;ve done it before: we became able to read, for example.  Making chlorophyll, on the other hand, may require a bit more effort!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for highlighting my book, Bart!  I also wrote about this issue more briefly in my Making Aliens 6-part series (starting point: <a href="http://www.starshipreckless.com/blog/?p=24" rel="nofollow">http://www.starshipreckless.com/blog/?p=24</a>) and in Dreamers of a Better Future, Unite! (<a href="http://www.starshipreckless.com/blog/?p=60" rel="nofollow">http://www.starshipreckless.com/blog/?p=60</a>).</p>
<p>There is no question that people would have to evolve if they lived on other earth-like planets, unless they were content to live forever under domes, a scenario that would resemble a prison or an ICU unit, rather than a new world.  Evolution of this type would lead to speciation, which I suspect will be the topic of your &#8220;divergent evolution&#8221; post.</p>
<p>To enlarge on the excellent point of the strictly-by-function scoring system of evolution: we won&#8217;t know which attributes of living organisms are universal and which are parochial until we have an independent life sample.  The gamut of terrestrial lifeforms alone and their divergent solutions to the same problem already show that only the outcome matters.  The ability to fly, rather than exactly how to do so (insect, bird and bat flight is based on very different principles).  To ability to see well enough to survive, thrive and propagate; and so forth.</p>
<p>Also, there are other senses that we don&#8217;t possess that are useful to other terrestrial organisms &#8212; sensing EM, for example, or being able to smell pheromones (something that humans cannot do no matter what the tabloids say, because our vomeronasal organ is not functional).  So one interesting question of diverging humans beyond earth is what other senses may become important in the new context, and what accommodations our body and brain can/will make to develop them.  We&#8217;ve done it before: we became able to read, for example.  Making chlorophyll, on the other hand, may require a bit more effort!</p>
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		<title>By: Zarpaulus</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-472</link>
		<dc:creator>Zarpaulus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-472</guid>
		<description>I think the main reason why so many fictional aliens look humanoid is because until recently human actors or puppets were the only options in live action films or tv shows.  Also it&#039;s easier for audiences to relate to humanoids than to something that looks like a cross between a giant bat and a starfish (the To&#039;ul&#039;h, from Orion&#039;s Arm).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the main reason why so many fictional aliens look humanoid is because until recently human actors or puppets were the only options in live action films or tv shows.  Also it&#8217;s easier for audiences to relate to humanoids than to something that looks like a cross between a giant bat and a starfish (the To&#8217;ul&#8217;h, from Orion&#8217;s Arm).</p>
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		<title>By: Phiala - Sarah Goslee</title>
		<link>http://scienceinmyfiction.com/2010/04/02/form-equals-form-equals-function/comment-page-1/#comment-469</link>
		<dc:creator>Phiala - Sarah Goslee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 13:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crossedgenres.com/simf/?p=501#comment-469</guid>
		<description>Oh, this is a &lt;i&gt;good&lt;/i&gt; game. 

Which bits are functional, which bits are coincidence?

It&#039;s useful to have your eyes up off the substrate, and it&#039;s useful to have more than one so you get depth perception. But is there any reason to have &lt;i&gt;two&lt;/i&gt; or would seven work just as well?

It&#039;s useful to have your brain really close to your major sensory organs (which may not be eyes or ears) because your nerve pathways only work so quickly. Unless you have more efficient nerves.

It&#039;s useful to have opposable manipulators that can grasp at a distance, but there&#039;s definitely no reason that four fingers and a thumb is the correct combination. Arms seem plausible, but again why two?

The bilateral symmetry vs radial symmetry split in terrestrial organisms goes way back. Is there any reason that one should be favored over another? And are there other arrangements that would work equally well?

Convergent evolution is all about function - some shapes work better for particular tasks. But the underlying body plan constrains everything: not all options are even available. 

There&#039;s constraint, function and coincidence, and they all go together to make an organism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, this is a <i>good</i> game. </p>
<p>Which bits are functional, which bits are coincidence?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s useful to have your eyes up off the substrate, and it&#8217;s useful to have more than one so you get depth perception. But is there any reason to have <i>two</i> or would seven work just as well?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s useful to have your brain really close to your major sensory organs (which may not be eyes or ears) because your nerve pathways only work so quickly. Unless you have more efficient nerves.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s useful to have opposable manipulators that can grasp at a distance, but there&#8217;s definitely no reason that four fingers and a thumb is the correct combination. Arms seem plausible, but again why two?</p>
<p>The bilateral symmetry vs radial symmetry split in terrestrial organisms goes way back. Is there any reason that one should be favored over another? And are there other arrangements that would work equally well?</p>
<p>Convergent evolution is all about function &#8211; some shapes work better for particular tasks. But the underlying body plan constrains everything: not all options are even available. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s constraint, function and coincidence, and they all go together to make an organism.</p>
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